After a day of the world seeing with their own eyes some of the atrocities left by the Russians, how can NATO and the UN sit on their hands any longer?
@EL and all - I am beyond gutted by this, not just the events themselves but the ongoing insistence of America and other nations that they're so afraid of Russia starting WWIII that they're prepared to allow Russia continuing to repeat atrocities comparable to those documents in WWII.
I would like to think that Bucha will change the minds of TPTB in NATO, but I am sorry to say that at this point, the carefully calibrated and tardy response that has characterised the West, not to mention its loudly trumpeted cowardice, has already made the West complicit in said atrocities.
I can hear them today, trying like hell to waggle fingers, make more threats of more sanctions (if those worked, those atrocities wouldn't have been committed), call meetings, and threaten to throw Russia off the Security and Human Rights Council
Putin does not now, nor has he ever, cared about sanctions, threats, rules, the truth, and civilised boundaries.
He IS getting away with it. If the West had shown enough muscle in the beginning, the holocaust taking place in Bucha and Mariupol might not have happened.
Even if he doesn't "take" Ukraine, he's still enough to force the West to wince at itself in the mirror.
I'm damned if I cut the West the slightest slack here given that this is happening on its doorstep, and any success the monster gets is going to make his case, not just for himself, but for other states, like China, curious to see just how far the West is willing to let this go. The contempt for the West behind closed doors will embolden others down the line.
There is no excuse for letting Putin get this far without anything more than sanctions and a bit of economic anxiety, whilst Ukraine denies him the quick victory everyone thought they could bemoan but be shet of as done and dusted - but at a price it should never have had to pay. And if armed properly, that price, by all odds, would have been much lower and Putin defeated more quickly.
Put up or shut up, NATO, America, Britain, France, Germany . . . don't ever expect me to listen to you lot and your panto about "values" ever again.
Tom Cullem, I noted last night while looking through a late 1920's history book I have that The Soviet Union was formerly created in December 1922. I wonder did Putin really think in this centenary year he could sweep through and on to the next on his list before anyone had time to react, thus being on his way to creating what they had and he wants back. My feeling the inaction is due to the what comes after question the West does not want to contemplate.
@GAP UK - Interesting catch, this, on the 100th anniversary of the creation of the Soviet Union! I would, as you do, suspect that Putin was fully aware of the significance of the year and scheduled his invasion to mark it.
I remain incredulous that the West not only wouldn't risk anything to avoid the holocaust shaping up on its doorstep, but failed to recognise the opportunity to wound lethally a major threat to its power that Ukraine's resistance offered. Had we armed Ukraine to the teeth in the weeks before an invasion the intelligence services knew was imminent, Putin would have been stopped and humiliated more quickly, thousands of lives saved, and a major threat left perhaps fatally weakened at home and abroad.
The missed opportunity for both moral and geopolitical power advantage is staggering. TC
Yes, even though Putin denied he intended to invade, "intelligence" services (as well as intelligent people everywhere) KNEW the invasion was imminent.
I hear you anger and this is why I very skeptical of the UN (and why I probably failed an exam when I tore them apart in it) because as some delegates stated, the SC is all talk and no action. Everyone saying the same or similar things doesn't lead to action or to protect the world as is their role.
As for NATO, can Stoltenberg actually come up with something that no one else has already said and that is of use to the world?
Also, the US claiming that there is no evidence of genocide yet... do they want to wait until Ukrainians are wiped out before they admit it? The Russians have admitted in doctrines that they wish to remove anyone who is pro-Ukrainian who they see as a Nazi contaminated but the evil west.
Sanctions are not working, yet that is all we keep hearing.
You are correct, Putin, like Hitler did not care about bodies such as the League of Nations or any treaties or pacts, and the failure of the LoN led to the Second World War. Very much like the failure of the UN which replaced it in 1946, we are seeing history repeat itself. The LoN adopted an appeasement approach and that allowed Hitler to start the war, just as the UN meetings and appeasement has led to the invasion of Ukraine.
@EL - You have the nugget of it. All that comes to mind is the sapient old French saying, "Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose", but the taste is bitter, indeed. TC
Sky News is reporting an allay of Putin says the goal is to build Eurasia from Lisbon to Vladivostok. Perhaps now Portugal, to the best of my knowledge hasn't said where where the government stands on the war, will finally take notice.
M.M In april of 1974 I was on a short holiday in Portugal when they decided to have an uprising, it was very frightening, even though I had spent time living in a neighbouring country which had a dictatorship. I did learn that things are never as straight forword or black and white as they first appear. A few years later I was in Italy when Aldo Moro was kidnapped and killed. Needless to say for a few years Europe was not my favoured or recommended holiday destination.
I have updated the article for the day, and Bucha has changed the minds of many who sat on the fence. It is important to establish an independent war crimes tribunal for this war ASAP because the ICC is powerless except to investigate.
Praying that, with UK holding Presidency of the UN Security Council, the UK honours the pledge to ensure the Security Council resolves the war and that Russia leaves Ukraine.
I actually felt sick to my stomach reading parts of this EL, I can’t put into words how angry I feel. Thanks for recording all this in such a concise way, I know it can’t be easy for you.
I see this morning that Russian claims these atrocities were ‘staged’ by Ukraine or the Uk was mentioned too, but now CCTV and drone footage from when the Russians were occupying that territory have proved the bodies have been there since they have had control. There are calls this morning for Russia to be expelled from the UN.
Sanctions are not currently working as too many countries are buying the cut price oil Russia is selling.
The people are suffering in Ukraine as in any other country where Russia has been involved, such as Syria. Why do we always hope he will change, or maybe this was a one off, it’s not and he will never change, neither will the Russian psyche of backing him, they are too terrified to do otherwise.
@EL and all - I am beyond gutted by this, not just the events themselves but the ongoing insistence of America and other nations that they're so afraid of Russia starting WWIII that they're prepared to allow Russia continuing to repeat atrocities comparable to those documents in WWII.
I would like to think that Bucha will change the minds of TPTB in NATO, but I am sorry to say that at this point, the carefully calibrated and tardy response that has characterised the West, not to mention its loudly trumpeted cowardice, has already made the West complicit in said atrocities.
I can hear them today, trying like hell to waggle fingers, make more threats of more sanctions (if those worked, those atrocities wouldn't have been committed), call meetings, and threaten to throw Russia off the Security and Human Rights Council
Putin does not now, nor has he ever, cared about sanctions, threats, rules, the truth, and civilised boundaries.
He IS getting away with it. If the West had shown enough muscle in the beginning, the holocaust taking place in Bucha and Mariupol might not have happened.
Even if he doesn't "take" Ukraine, he's still enough to force the West to wince at itself in the mirror.
I'm damned if I cut the West the slightest slack here given that this is happening on its doorstep, and any success the monster gets is going to make his case, not just for himself, but for other states, like China, curious to see just how far the West is willing to let this go. The contempt for the West behind closed doors will embolden others down the line.
There is no excuse for letting Putin get this far without anything more than sanctions and a bit of economic anxiety, whilst Ukraine denies him the quick victory everyone thought they could bemoan but be shet of as done and dusted - but at a price it should never have had to pay. And if armed properly, that price, by all odds, would have been much lower and Putin defeated more quickly.
Put up or shut up, NATO, America, Britain, France, Germany . . . don't ever expect me to listen to you lot and your panto about "values" ever again.
Yes, friends, I am that angry. TC
Tom Cullem, I noted last night while looking through a late 1920's history book I have that The Soviet Union was formerly created in December 1922. I wonder did Putin really think in this centenary year he could sweep through and on to the next on his list before anyone had time to react, thus being on his way to creating what they had and he wants back. My feeling the inaction is due to the what comes after question the West does not want to contemplate.
@GAP UK - Interesting catch, this, on the 100th anniversary of the creation of the Soviet Union! I would, as you do, suspect that Putin was fully aware of the significance of the year and scheduled his invasion to mark it.
I remain incredulous that the West not only wouldn't risk anything to avoid the holocaust shaping up on its doorstep, but failed to recognise the opportunity to wound lethally a major threat to its power that Ukraine's resistance offered. Had we armed Ukraine to the teeth in the weeks before an invasion the intelligence services knew was imminent, Putin would have been stopped and humiliated more quickly, thousands of lives saved, and a major threat left perhaps fatally weakened at home and abroad.
The missed opportunity for both moral and geopolitical power advantage is staggering. TC
Tom Cullem As I have said quite a few times the West has grown weak and flabby minded over the last 20 years or so.
Yes, even though Putin denied he intended to invade, "intelligence" services (as well as intelligent people everywhere) KNEW the invasion was imminent.
I hear you anger and this is why I very skeptical of the UN (and why I probably failed an exam when I tore them apart in it) because as some delegates stated, the SC is all talk and no action. Everyone saying the same or similar things doesn't lead to action or to protect the world as is their role.
As for NATO, can Stoltenberg actually come up with something that no one else has already said and that is of use to the world?
Also, the US claiming that there is no evidence of genocide yet... do they want to wait until Ukrainians are wiped out before they admit it? The Russians have admitted in doctrines that they wish to remove anyone who is pro-Ukrainian who they see as a Nazi contaminated but the evil west.
Sanctions are not working, yet that is all we keep hearing.
You are correct, Putin, like Hitler did not care about bodies such as the League of Nations or any treaties or pacts, and the failure of the LoN led to the Second World War. Very much like the failure of the UN which replaced it in 1946, we are seeing history repeat itself. The LoN adopted an appeasement approach and that allowed Hitler to start the war, just as the UN meetings and appeasement has led to the invasion of Ukraine.
@EL - You have the nugget of it. All that comes to mind is the sapient old French saying, "Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose", but the taste is bitter, indeed. TC
Sky News is reporting an allay of Putin says the goal is to build Eurasia from Lisbon to Vladivostok. Perhaps now Portugal, to the best of my knowledge hasn't said where where the government stands on the war, will finally take notice.
M.M In april of 1974 I was on a short holiday in Portugal when they decided to have an uprising, it was very frightening, even though I had spent time living in a neighbouring country which had a dictatorship. I did learn that things are never as straight forword or black and white as they first appear. A few years later I was in Italy when Aldo Moro was kidnapped and killed. Needless to say for a few years Europe was not my favoured or recommended holiday destination.
After those unpleasant experiences, it's easy to understand why you would give the continent short shift, for awhile at least.
I have updated the article for the day, and Bucha has changed the minds of many who sat on the fence. It is important to establish an independent war crimes tribunal for this war ASAP because the ICC is powerless except to investigate.
Thanks EL for the further up-date.
Praying that, with UK holding Presidency of the UN Security Council, the UK honours the pledge to ensure the Security Council resolves the war and that Russia leaves Ukraine.
I actually felt sick to my stomach reading parts of this EL, I can’t put into words how angry I feel. Thanks for recording all this in such a concise way, I know it can’t be easy for you.
I see this morning that Russian claims these atrocities were ‘staged’ by Ukraine or the Uk was mentioned too, but now CCTV and drone footage from when the Russians were occupying that territory have proved the bodies have been there since they have had control. There are calls this morning for Russia to be expelled from the UN.
Sanctions are not currently working as too many countries are buying the cut price oil Russia is selling.
The people are suffering in Ukraine as in any other country where Russia has been involved, such as Syria. Why do we always hope he will change, or maybe this was a one off, it’s not and he will never change, neither will the Russian psyche of backing him, they are too terrified to do otherwise.